Talk:Will Materialisation
Karura So, this is a legitimate question. While I know her ability is obviously not as prominent as Madara, Obito, or Black Zetsu, Karura's will was stated to have been the direct reason Gaara's sand reacts and protects him immediately; proven when her form manifested in his sand during the fight with his father. Does that constitute a "will materialization" user? Or at the very least, a trivia note? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 02:12, August 11, 2014 (UTC) Maybe a trivia note. Her likeness was shown in Gaara's sand, but I don't think it was alive. I think it was more of a defensive mechanism. [[User:WindStar7125|''WindStar7125]] (Talk) 03:15, August 11, 2014 (UTC) :I don't think so. We know next to nothing about Will Metrialisation, it's way too early to apply this to Karura's motherly love. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:16, August 11, 2014 (UTC) But a trivia note could still be added. It was said that Karura was protecting him, not shukaku so in a sense she is the sand somehow. Munchvtec (talk) 12:49, August 11, 2014 (UTC) : I double checked. It definitely says Karura's will is what controls the sand to protect Gaara. So, still Trivia or a user? ~ 'Ten Tailed Fox' 21:44, August 26, 2014 (UTC) ::Doesn't will materialization work by turning your will into a thing? That would suggest that Gaara's sand was created by Karura and that it's alive or something, so this is likely something else.--Elveonora (talk) 21:49, August 26, 2014 (UTC) ::: Madara controlled his black rod things with just his will. Kaguya is the only one who has ever created something from her will. The text specifically says Karura's will lives in the sand and controls it to defend Gaara when he is in danger. ~ 'Ten Tailed Fox' 22:27, August 26, 2014 (UTC) ::::Yes, but Karura is dead, she ain't controlling anything--Elveonora (talk) 22:30, August 26, 2014 (UTC) ::::: 'Cept manga says she is controlling things, so that kinda goes against what you're saying. Not the first time a dead character has influenced the world from beyond the grave. Gaara doesn't defend himself with the sand, he's admitted that much, and Shukaku was out as a source the moment he was stripped from Gaara's body. Yashamaru and the Fourth Kazekage both say, at different times, that it is Karura's will that moves the sand. ~ 'Ten Tailed Fox' 22:40, August 26, 2014 (UTC) ::::::But it's not this technique. Thing made with WM vanish after the creator's death--Elveonora (talk) 22:42, August 26, 2014 (UTC) And your proof of that is...? We don't even know if what Madara does, what Zetsu does, and what Kaguya does is all the same thing. They could be two-three separate techniques. We just know that somehow they put their will into something and control it, which is exactly what Karura has done. The first sentence on this page meets the requirement for what Karura does. Edit: We have sections for each character because each character's version is different. Why not Karura's too? ~ 'Ten Tailed Fox' 22:45, August 26, 2014 (UTC) :Madara's rods vanished after his death.--Elveonora (talk) 22:47, August 26, 2014 (UTC) :: Not what I was getting at. I was trying to establish that you don't know that it isn't this technique. Furthermore, you don't know that this ''is a technique. And lastly, even if it is, we don't know if it is a single technique, two techniques, or three techniques for all three users. Each use was very, very, different from the others. So how can you say Karura's wasn't some form of this? Again, her will inhabits Gaara's sand and moves it of her own accord. That is a form of will materialization as we know it thusfar. We can simply make a section like we've done for the other three and describe her usage. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 22:53, August 26, 2014 (UTC) Agreed with Fox-boss. This page was specifically created due to the fact that "My/Her/Its.....will" was stated somewhere or another. Just because it looks different or whatever, doesn't necessarily mean it doesnt fit this page. The ability that's being represented and highlighted by the page is any ability to manipulate outside forces with their "Will". Plain and simple. -- KotoTalk Page- 01:01, August 27, 2014 (UTC) :Except this is turning will into a physical state, not manipulating something with your will. Karura didn't turn anything into an embodiment of her will--Elveonora (talk) 08:40, August 27, 2014 (UTC) Foxie, you didn't even wait for others to chime in and went on to do as you please, what's with this habit of yours?--Elveonora (talk) 08:42, August 27, 2014 (UTC) I don't understand. Why do you think that this page was created for that? No one but Kaguya has been described to do that. The rest haven't. Zetsu manipulates minds and actions. Madara manipulates action via Chakra Receivers, Karura manipulates the sand. In actuality, Kaguya's is the most different from the rest.-- KotoTalk Page- 11:52, August 27, 2014 (UTC) :The technique says: "will materialization" that being: giving will a physical form. Kaguya made Black Zetsu (and possibly rods too) while Madara made rods. Karura didn't make anything, moving stuff with your will isn't will materialization, but motherly love whatever--Elveonora (talk) 12:17, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::Well, no. Materialisation:the process of coming into being; becoming reality. Making rods is Chakra Receiver Manifestation, not Will Materialisation. You're not making your point very well. -- KotoTalk Page- 12:39, August 27, 2014 (UTC) :::And how is moving sand materialization? And check the talkpage, there's no good reason to believe the rods are made with something different than this--Elveonora (talk) 12:45, August 27, 2014 (UTC) This whole Page was created for Madara's ability to manifest his will as a sentient life form as he demonstrated with BZ. By time we learned that BZ in another person's manifested will not Madara's. And we knew that the Ten-Tails is also a manifested will. Now what does Karura have to do with this? Putting your will in something is a great ability, but manifesting your will as a sentient life form is completely different.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 14:21, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::::Nah, the Ten-Tails isn't a manifested will. It's Shinju incarnated with Kaguya. That was a misinterpretation, BZ said that the Ten-Tails trying to reclaim its chakra was Kaguya's will, in short it was her intent, not of the Shinju--Elveonora (talk) 14:25, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::::: Nevertheless, the Ten-tails is her incarnation along with Shinju. And it happened by her will.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 14:38, August 27, 2014 (UTC) Not this technique though.--Elveonora (talk) 14:39, August 27, 2014 (UTC) Black Zetsu Why is "he" listed as a user?--Elveonora (talk) 14:33, August 27, 2014 (UTC) : Apparently coating someone and forcing him to do his bidding is also Will Materialization, as well as influencing others by his will, is the reason.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 14:41, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::"In spiritualism, paranormal literature, and some religions, materialization (or manifestation) is the creation or appearance of matter from unknown sources. It is the transformation of something abstract or virtual into something concrete and tangible" Karura and Black Zetsu didn't do anything of the sort, they aren't users.--Elveonora (talk) 14:42, August 27, 2014 (UTC) By that definition, then only Kaguya would be a user. That's not what this article is about. -- KotoTalk Page- 15:39, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::Kaguya and Madara. And that's the official definition of manifestation/materialization.--Elveonora (talk) 15:53, August 27, 2014 (UTC) :::Is a ghost not a manifestation of something? Is it matter, or something else inherently physical? No to both. So you're wrong on that account. And, on the second, Madara has never created anything using this ability, he's only controlled people via chakra receivers. And as i said above, Chakra Receiver Manifestation is something totally different from what this page represents. So again, by the definition you've given above, ONLY Kaguya would be a user. But that's a different story. :::I truly belive the problem is coming from the word Materialisation here. If it's necessary, why not just change the page name to "Will Manifestation", or something similar. Don't try to rework the entirety of the page. You'll be fighting an uphill battle. -- KotoTalk Page- 16:02, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::::This wiki or any other website aren't the determinant of what's right/true, the manga is. And Madara according to his own words made his will into the rods and planned to make Black Zetsu, which he thought he did. The article chakra receiver manifestation is wrong and shouldn't exist by now. For the rest, I don't get the ghost part--Elveonora (talk) 16:06, August 27, 2014 (UTC) You are making this an issue of semantics, which it isn't. We don't change an article's name to suit our needs. What you attribute to it is outside the extent of what it does.--Elveonora (talk) 16:13, August 27, 2014 (UTC) That's because that's exactly what it is. This page describes a general ability, not a specific technique, hence "... for different purposes". EDIT CONFLICT:"the ghost part", simply debunks your definition of manifestion, as ghost, in literature are manifestations of other beings, yet it is not matter nor physically tangible. Now, before you editing any articles and i begin edit warring with you, please tell me what exactly is it you propose. I want to know youre entire stand on things here, chakra receivers, and Banbutsu Sōzō (cuz i know its gonna come up sooner or later) -- KotoTalk Page- 16:17, August 27, 2014 (UTC) :Okay, but this article was made to describe what Madara and Kaguya did. Make a separate article for Karura's will controlling sand. And Black Zetsu already has his article Body Coating--Elveonora (talk) 16:20, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::No, this article was made to describe the liberally used term, "will", and those who are able to do various, and sometime unrelated, things with it. Do you read the source citations in the article, because what Zetsu did to Madara was labelled as this. -- KotoTalk Page- 16:26, August 27, 2014 (UTC) :::Oh, I see now that you were the one who has made this article. That makes you feel entitled to decide what falls under its umbrella and how wide said umbrella is, I guess? In that case my kind suggestion is that we use this article only for the same phenomena, not unrelated sorts of will stuff--Elveonora (talk) 16:31, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::::No, what gives me that ability is being an editor in general, who understands the purpose of the article. Likely more than others. But that suggestion is a bit counter-productive as "will" has been used so damn liberally in this series. It's like Kishi doesn't know what else to use or something =/. Either way, the only two cases that are familiar are both Madara's and Zetsu, as they use it to manipulate others. Kaguya's is more like Ban. Sozo, and Karura's is totally different. -- KotoTalk Page- 16:37, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::::: So, we're not allowed to say this website (or others) are the authority on anything, yet you @Elve can use a Wikipedia definition to prove your point. Sketchy. Secondly, this is an unnamed technique so the definition of "Materialization" means about as much as a bag of dog shit does. Change the name or don't change anything but the users remain as they are because they all do virtually the same unnamed thing (the only difference being methods). ~ Ten Tailed Fox 16:40, August 27, 2014 (UTC) This is the thing though: what Kaguya and Madara did was the same technique/ability. That's why I feel it should have a proper article without unrelated things included. For Black Zetsu, I don't see how is he a user of any will manifestation. He is a parasite who forces others' action by being attached to them, he doesn't create anything out of his will--Elveonora (talk) 16:44, August 27, 2014 (UTC) : Kaguya and Madara didn't do anything the same. Madara was tricked into believe he created Black Zetsu. That wasn't his usage. He uses his will to control people through the black rods he stabs into other people. The point is, you don't what this is, we don't know what this is, this article is the collection of knowledge we know about people who can manipulate things and people with their will. When and if it gets a name and is applied to different users, we'll split it. Until then, you have feelings and speculation. You don't even know if it is a technique and not just some standard ability, a unique trait, so on and so forth. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 16:48, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::Considering he thought he had made BZ means he could. You don't proceed to do something that you can't. The rods and Black Zetsu are made of the same substance--Elveonora (talk) 16:50, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::: Oh please don't feed me that bullcrap. Black Zetsu himself said that Madara didn't generate him and you have no evidence whatsoever that he and the black rods are made of the same material. You presume to tell me not to assume what the manga told me true, but then make up crud like that? Please. That's enough of this. There is no evidence that what Madara, Karura, Kaguya, and Black Zetsu do are the same thing. The only similarity and the purpose of this page is that they somehow manipulate their will to influence the outside world. That is all this page is about. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:01, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::::Cut the attitude please, I'm not feeding you anything. Read again what I wrote. Madara's intent was to make Black Zetsu, that means he could, I know he didn't. And we do: http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140707085643/naruto/images/3/31/BlackZetsu_Merging.png --Elveonora (talk) 17:10, August 27, 2014 (UTC) ::::: So why not add B. Zetsu as a user of Chakra Receiver Manifestation??--'Koto'Talk Page- 17:41, August 27, 2014 (UTC) Obito already had black rods in his arms. That isn't proof. Secondly, you are feeding me a load of crap. Madara thought he could do a lot of things. Creating Zetsu, engineering his own revival, using the IT were all things he thought were his own ideas, but were actually the result of Black Zetsu's manipulation. I can think I can fly and still not fly. No, Madara could not do the same thing. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:45, August 27, 2014 (UTC) :The rods vanish after the creator's death, as shown and observed by Hashirama. Madara could manifest his will, hence the rods being his will, that's why he thought he had made Black Zetsu, because he could.--Elveonora (talk) 18:14, August 27, 2014 (UTC) Minato/Kushina Should they be listed because their chakra made a copy of them which manifested to restore Naruto's seal and help him battle Kurama. TricksterKing (talk) 10:49, September 5, 2014 (UTC) :Na, that was chakra. I also don't think that Karura should be listed, lol. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:53, September 5, 2014 (UTC) :: Fair enough, just seemed a bit silly to list Karura and ignore Minato and Kushina. TricksterKing (talk) 12:17, September 5, 2014 (UTC) :::No amount of reason I tried, Foxie just did his own thing. Will Materialisation is what Kaguya and Madara could do, nothing else.--Elveonora (talk) 15:52, September 5, 2014 (UTC) ::::Did he give any manga sources? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:04, September 5, 2014 (UTC) ::::: Look above Seel. There are two sources and both specifically mention her will manifested in Gaara's sand, causing the sand to protect him on its own. (The chapter and page numbers are in the references on the page too btw) ~ Ten Tailed Fox 16:05, September 5, 2014 (UTC) ::::::Well, it indeed says will, but there's no sight of any black substance or so, hm? I think this is more of a question of interpretation... but whatever, it's not that I care. • Seelentau 愛 議 08:27, September 6, 2014 (UTC) ::::::: Isn't it more like she put her will in Gaara's ability to control sand, rather than the sand itself? After all sand is replaceable.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 10:28, September 6, 2014 (UTC) There's no materialisation going on in Karura's case and what Minato and Kushina did was put their chakra into Naruto. It was more like Shadow Clones, no will stuff--Elveonora (talk) 13:48, September 6, 2014 (UTC) I'll chime in and try to keep it short. *We know Gaara is not directly responsible for his automatic defence *For the longest time we believe it was Shukaku's doing *Then YK said it was Karura's doing *We came to a consensus that it was Karura's doing *Karura isn't alive, and yet her desire to protect Gaara is still in effect In other words her will continued to live on after she had passed and it materialised in Gaara's Ultimate Defence. I believe that is Fox's reasoning, and I agree with it. Minato and Kushina leaving portions of their chakra is not all the same.--Reliops (talk) 03:13, September 8, 2014 (UTC) :Unless Karura attached black goo to Gaara or he has a rod in his rectum, then no, she isn't a user--Elveonora (talk) 09:55, September 8, 2014 (UTC) Hand Seals Isn't it supposed to be half Ram? because this technique was casted by Madara Uchiha; he was seen with half Ram, and Obito is shown with mirrored Ram and it was for another technique. I just need an explanation before changing.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 21:03, January 9, 2015 (UTC) Heads up Just a quick heads up: I removed Karura as a user because the fourth databook states that she put her chakra in the sand. For a little more on that, look here please. • Seelentau 愛 議 07:03, July 6, 2015 (UTC) but that dosent discredit the fact that her will moves it does it? that just sheds more light into what she did. in fusing ur chakra into something alone dosent make it act automatically, nor does it make it defend someone else automatically, i mean it had to have been much more than the local chakra infusing stuff,plus ujnless her chakra reached every grain of sand in suna,it was definately more than that. will materialization also involves chakra infusing too, when madara used the rods on obito,it was noted that he was using his chakra to control him, unless her chakra is some living,growing,multiplying entity, i dnt think she should be removed, the databook didnt discredit that her will causes the sand to move,its clearly neither gaara's nor shukaku's. just saying. (Jaakor48 (talk) 13:08, July 18, 2015 (UTC)) :Her chakra moves it. You can't move something with "will". Basically, she didn't materialise her will, it's her chakra that contains her will. Like a macro or so. But as a famous person once said: Chakra is screwy. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:52, July 18, 2015 (UTC)